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Hello Convention question

#1 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 12:41

In defending against a strong NT, does anyone know why 'they' say it should only be used in the direct seat ? eg, why not 1NT -P -P - ?.

Also, is Suction allowed now ?

Thank you
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#2 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 14:57

One of the main goals of HELLO is to get partner to be declarer so that the 1NT bidder has to make an opening lead away from their values. While you can play whatever you like in balancing seat, doing so would achieve the complete opposite..
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 15:40

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-January-22, 14:57, said:

One of the main goals of HELLO is to get partner to be declarer so that the 1NT bidder has to make an opening lead away from their values. While you can play whatever you like in balancing seat, doing so would achieve the complete opposite..


Plus you retain the inherent defect (as I read it) of the stronger hand becoming dummy.
The important thing is to remember it, TDs and ethical partners dislike transfer forgets.

Suction in interference is allowed at any level anywhere in Europe (I think), no idea about ACBL.
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 16:07

Playing Hello in the balancing seat I switch some of the bids as below so:
X - or Major+Minor, Typically no penalty bid needed
2 natural
2 - both Majors
2 natural
2 natural
2NT - Both minors/strong both majors.
Higher bids are then normal preemptive
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#5 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 16:21

If I remember correctly (and that question strongly implies it), you are in ACBL territory.

In which case, Suction (which was always legal on the Mid- and Super-charts, good luck finding one of those if you're not bracket 1) is legal in Open and Open+, but not Basic or Basic+. So don't play in masterpoint-limited games, and you'll be fine. Oops, for KOs, you need to be in a bracket with a 6000+ team (or, you know, *be* a 6000+ team).
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#6 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 17:01

View Postmycroft, on 2022-January-22, 16:21, said:

If I remember correctly (and that question strongly implies it), you are in ACBL territory.

In which case, Suction (which was always legal on the Mid- and Super-charts, good luck finding one of those if you're not bracket 1) is legal in Open and Open+, but not Basic or Basic+. So don't play in masterpoint-limited games, and you'll be fine. Oops, for KOs, you need to be in a bracket with a 6000+ team (or, you know, *be* a 6000+ team).


Thank you all. Yes I am in ACBL; your memory is still good. I have never played Suction Can anyone comment on how it compares to Hello ( which is what we use currently against 1NT, strong 1C and strong 2C (with a couple tweaks). Is one better than the other or are they simply different ?

I almost always play in Open Club games, so I take it Suction is allowed form your comment in this case ?
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#7 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-January-22, 18:20

Clubs are on their own. You have to ask the club what their games are rated. The ACBL "recommends" they do the obvious (Basic+ for "limited" games, Open for "open" games, Open+ for "experienced" or "experimental" nights). But since they set Basic+ as "<3000", there are a fair number of "open" clubs that feel Basic+ fits their community better (read: "that one pair that plays all the weird stuff and is obnoxious about it (and possibly very good players), we don't want to have in our game, so we blame the weird stuff.")

Yes, I'm biased. Yes, there's a reason I push very hard for the "weird stuff" players to Alert correctly and explain very well, and try to keep the "I'm smarter than you" implications to a minimum.

I haven't played suction against NT (back before the ban, I played CRaSh, have no interest in doing it now), but there are several pro-level experts who have said "you can play anything you like Mid-Chart against me in a GCC game, as long as you promise to play Suction". Take that any way you wish :-). I will say that the one pair, back when the Saturday game was Mid-Chart, that played Suction against Weak NT, universally had the third option (*) whenever they bid it. MikeH plays Suction occasionally (with only the two options), I remember from forums - search his posts for it?

(*) You know, "the next suit, or the other two, or the bid suit if partner forgot again"?
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#8 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2022-January-23, 12:49

I think the OP was wondering why HELLO should change in the balancing position. As I recall, the convention features a penalty double. The reason this is undesirable in 4th seat has to do with positioning. In the direct seat, the 1n bidder is on your right, and your (presumable) penalty values are sitting over their hand. Also, if you are penalizing on 7 quick tricks, you are staring at them and know how you are going to take them. In 4th seat, the reverse is true, the 1n bidder is sitting over your hand. Even if you can see 7 tricks, partner is going to be on lead and the correct lead may be necessary to get them before the opponents can get their tricks (it is VERY possible that both sides can take 7 tricks depending upon the lead). These ideas make having a penalty double in 4th seat not as desirable as other meanings for the double. I think when I first ran across this convention, a double in 4th seat was used as a relay to 2c, but I haven't used this convention in quite awhile.

Keep in mind, one of the key purposes of this convention is to get the 4th seat to play as many hands as possible. This position oriented strategy is one of the primary reasons for the convention. This is to get the 1n opener to make the opening lead which should generate extra tricks for you.
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-January-28, 18:31

IIRC Jerry Helms, in his booklet on HELLO, had a system something like what mw64 posted upthread for bidding in the pass out seat, but I don't remember the details.
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#10 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2022-January-29, 10:38

Just out of curiosity, what is the HELLO convention please?
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#11 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2022-January-29, 15:38

View PostDouglas43, on 2022-January-29, 10:38, said:

Just out of curiosity, what is the HELLO convention please?

https://www.jerryhel...ms_on_Hello.htm

#12 User is offline   ali quarg 

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Posted 2022-January-29, 16:00

In the pamphlet Hello in the Passout seat is only changed for the X-transfer to

After that
Pass -
2 - & a Major
2 - &
2 - &
Every thing else remains the same
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#13 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted Today, 01:18

View PostChas_P, on 2022-January-29, 15:38, said:



Thanks, that's a really interesting defence, surprised I hadn't come across it. And it keeps a penalty double which is handy in the UK. Copied below for other lazy readers like me. Posted Image

HELLO
2 Posted ImageRelay to 2 Posted Image. Confirm a diamond overcall by passing, or convert the forced diamond response to a major to show a major/minor two-suiter. Advancer uses 3C asking intervener to pass or correct (improvement update in 2nd printing).
2 Posted ImageTRANSFER overcall to HEARTS
2 Posted ImageBOTH MAJORS. Achieves transfer effect when Advancer chooses spades.2
Posted ImageSPADES. A natural, space-consuming overcall.
2 NTTRANSFER overcall to CLUBS
3 Posted ImageBOTH MINORS. Achieves transfer effect when the Advancer chooses diamonds
3 Posted ImageBOTH MAJORS. Massive playing strength. The forced transfer eliminates the risk of a pass of 2 hearts (both majors) by Advancer.
DBLPENALTY. Most often based on tricks from a good suit. Occasionally a very strong, balanced hand.
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